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	<title>Comments on: Is University Necessary?</title>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-60801</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 18:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-60801</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually not that great of a coder at all. My strengths aren&#039;t in CS, I just felt that it was the best major to go with at this point in time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually not that great of a coder at all. My strengths aren&#8217;t in CS, I just felt that it was the best major to go with at this point in time.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-60800</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 18:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-60800</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s me!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Lash</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59864</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Lash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59864</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with you Tim. All the trends in education point towards the digitization of content and remote learning. What happens in the classroom will change forever whether we like it or not. It&#039;s simply easier to learn at your own pace and from the best teachers in the world. The Internet offers both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with you Tim. All the trends in education point towards the digitization of content and remote learning. What happens in the classroom will change forever whether we like it or not. It&#8217;s simply easier to learn at your own pace and from the best teachers in the world. The Internet offers both.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59859</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59859</guid>
		<description>College is clearly not necessary.  All of the supposed advantages of college can be done on one&#039;s own if they are creative about how they design their educational experiences.  Through traveling, meeting up with people, creating new things, collaborating with peers, and learning from mentors, a student can design an education that is very powerful and immersed in their passions in a hands-on context.  UnCollege, a movement started by Dale Stephens, is providing very beneficial resources for students to design a holistic, empowering education.

Yes, historically, people are not as &quot;successful&quot; on average when they drop out of school.  Yet, using this as an argument reverses the cause and effect.  Currently, the only reason that there are not many people succeeding who drop out of school is because society still largely looks down upon it.  In a world where education was entirely self-directed, people would be generally happier and different, because people would be able to come to conclusions on their own, without being subject to adhering to what the teacher wants to hear or see on a graded exam or paper.  As self-directed learners begin to realize that they can showcase their creations through LinkedIn, Seelio, blogs, and person al websites, the credentialing power that Universities current control slips; and fast.  People within the higher education system already realize this, and are grasping to hold on.

As students continue to realize that they can educate themselves much better outside of the classroom, the University as we know it will change forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>College is clearly not necessary.  All of the supposed advantages of college can be done on one&#8217;s own if they are creative about how they design their educational experiences.  Through traveling, meeting up with people, creating new things, collaborating with peers, and learning from mentors, a student can design an education that is very powerful and immersed in their passions in a hands-on context.  UnCollege, a movement started by Dale Stephens, is providing very beneficial resources for students to design a holistic, empowering education.</p>
<p>Yes, historically, people are not as &#8220;successful&#8221; on average when they drop out of school.  Yet, using this as an argument reverses the cause and effect.  Currently, the only reason that there are not many people succeeding who drop out of school is because society still largely looks down upon it.  In a world where education was entirely self-directed, people would be generally happier and different, because people would be able to come to conclusions on their own, without being subject to adhering to what the teacher wants to hear or see on a graded exam or paper.  As self-directed learners begin to realize that they can showcase their creations through LinkedIn, Seelio, blogs, and person al websites, the credentialing power that Universities current control slips; and fast.  People within the higher education system already realize this, and are grasping to hold on.</p>
<p>As students continue to realize that they can educate themselves much better outside of the classroom, the University as we know it will change forever.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59357</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59357</guid>
		<description>Yup</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59142</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59142</guid>
		<description>Is this the same David? http://gizmodo.com/5978408/yes-of-course-the-guy-who-made-this-awful-app-is-a-virgin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this the same David? <a href="http://gizmodo.com/5978408/yes-of-course-the-guy-who-made-this-awful-app-is-a-virgin" rel="nofollow">http://gizmodo.com/5978408/yes-of-course-the-guy-who-made-this-awful-app-is-a-virgin</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59124</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59124</guid>
		<description>&quot;In a university setting, critique is delivered with the primary purpose, and often with the only purpose, of improving the student’s thinking.&quot; This a dangerously idealistic assumption that&#039;s easy to make from a professor&#039;s perspective. This is likely true of many engineering professors on strictly technical topics, but one needs only to take a class in the social sciences to see critique being delivered to protect the professor&#039;s ego and/or viewpoint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In a university setting, critique is delivered with the primary purpose, and often with the only purpose, of improving the student’s thinking.&#8221; This a dangerously idealistic assumption that&#8217;s easy to make from a professor&#8217;s perspective. This is likely true of many engineering professors on strictly technical topics, but one needs only to take a class in the social sciences to see critique being delivered to protect the professor&#8217;s ego and/or viewpoint.</p>
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		<title>By: Jibba Jabba</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59119</link>
		<dc:creator>Jibba Jabba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59119</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re making the assumption that students of &quot;academic disciplines&quot; go on to work in their fields - for how many is this true? For those that continue in different fields, how necessary was their education, could their time/money have been better spent? To how many of these students does an education simply mean &quot;a loss of $100k&quot;?

And that the University has lasted the 19 years since the advent of the web does not mean it will survive further in its current state. Higher education develops many of the world&#039;s new techs but is slow to adopt them itself. Books are no longer the sole province of robe-class monks, lectures no longer restricted to the wealthy. HE needs to do more to stay relevant than simply argue &quot;we were relevant yesterday&quot;. UM is trying on various fronts; it remains to be seen which will succeed, and if it will be enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re making the assumption that students of &#8220;academic disciplines&#8221; go on to work in their fields &#8211; for how many is this true? For those that continue in different fields, how necessary was their education, could their time/money have been better spent? To how many of these students does an education simply mean &#8220;a loss of $100k&#8221;?</p>
<p>And that the University has lasted the 19 years since the advent of the web does not mean it will survive further in its current state. Higher education develops many of the world&#8217;s new techs but is slow to adopt them itself. Books are no longer the sole province of robe-class monks, lectures no longer restricted to the wealthy. HE needs to do more to stay relevant than simply argue &#8220;we were relevant yesterday&#8221;. UM is trying on various fronts; it remains to be seen which will succeed, and if it will be enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59074</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 02:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59074</guid>
		<description>Mr. Fontenot comes into this debate as a largely self-taught computer programmer. While this accomplishment is admirable, I do not think Mr. Fontenot has the right perspective on what a university means to students of chemistry, biology, psychology, and philosophy to give a proper assessment of the issue. 

Those in academic disciplines understand what a university is about. Computer programming, while intellectually challenging, is simply not an academic enterprise in the same respect. It&#039;s a practical enterprise -- a very useful one, at that! But programmers commit a gross overextension of their own experiences when they argue that the university as a whole is disposable because they don&#039;t feel that they&#039;ve ever needed it.

Gadflies like Mr. Fontenot have been propagating these polemical arguments since the advent of the web, but the fact is that universities are here to stay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Fontenot comes into this debate as a largely self-taught computer programmer. While this accomplishment is admirable, I do not think Mr. Fontenot has the right perspective on what a university means to students of chemistry, biology, psychology, and philosophy to give a proper assessment of the issue. </p>
<p>Those in academic disciplines understand what a university is about. Computer programming, while intellectually challenging, is simply not an academic enterprise in the same respect. It&#8217;s a practical enterprise &#8212; a very useful one, at that! But programmers commit a gross overextension of their own experiences when they argue that the university as a whole is disposable because they don&#8217;t feel that they&#8217;ve ever needed it.</p>
<p>Gadflies like Mr. Fontenot have been propagating these polemical arguments since the advent of the web, but the fact is that universities are here to stay.</p>
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		<title>By: Jibba Jabba</title>
		<link>http://consideronline.org/2013/01/22/is-university-necessary/comment-page-1/#comment-59057</link>
		<dc:creator>Jibba Jabba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://consideronline.org/?p=11344#comment-59057</guid>
		<description>There are a few problems with the argument for University education. First, when analyzing degreed/non-degreed salaries, i want to see a comparison from similar socio-economic levels. If i&#039;m middle class, is the salary discrepancy as high as if i&#039;m lower or higher class? Second, the argument presumes that the point of a university is to educate, but is that the point of the student, and will a student emerge educated if their primary concern is their return on investment? Finally, while employers desire thinking employees, we also want employees with skills.  Too often university graduate comes to me with esoteric class credentials and no real world experience.  I prefer to hire those with experience versus those with degrees because i have a faster turnaround to get work done.  That said, i also like thinking individuals who can bring new insight to the position.  Students who come out of university overly concerned with recouping their investment don&#039;t always fit this description.

The argument against education suffers from a belief that all students might be self-directed; many aren&#039;t. Many need to grow up and accept that others have important concepts to teach them.  And of the drop-out examples listed, how many come from poor families?  It&#039;s easier to dropout and Make It when your parents are investment bankers, not so much when they&#039;re crack addicts.  For some of us, a degree is the only way to get a foot in the door - it&#039;s otherwise slammed in our faces because of our accents, the way we look, or other employer prejudice.

One problem with both sides of this argument is they avoid answering real problems facing education. University needs to understand Industry&#039;s need of skills-equipped labour.  Students need to understand the desireability of critical thinking. Cost must be controlled: $1200/credit hour to learn Calc from a foreign PhD candidate, plus $200 for the book on a subject that hasn&#039;t changed in 300 years equals a broken system. While there are professors who actually know how to teach, too many focus on their research at the expense of their students.  While there are students who actually know how to learn, too many focus on the shortest path to a passable grade. And we still have an education disparity gap wherein students from lower economic classes don&#039;t even consider going to college, let alone make it into elite universities. Who does the outreach into these communities? Does UM faculty receive any training on the specific pedagogical needs of such populations?  Do students receive specific training on how to think? And how does an employer distinguish between the graduate that just skated by versus the one that really learned?  A few more letters after &quot;BA&quot; tells me nothing; i need to quickly understand what a graduate knows and why one graduate is better than the other candidate.  The graduate should also understand/communicate his strongpoints, not feel lost when presented with real-world problems.  And the professor should know how to enable each student to reach the end goal - grades are silly; get the knowledge to the customer, your student.

Kahn speaks of one way forward in the latest Communications of the ACM; are there others?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a few problems with the argument for University education. First, when analyzing degreed/non-degreed salaries, i want to see a comparison from similar socio-economic levels. If i&#8217;m middle class, is the salary discrepancy as high as if i&#8217;m lower or higher class? Second, the argument presumes that the point of a university is to educate, but is that the point of the student, and will a student emerge educated if their primary concern is their return on investment? Finally, while employers desire thinking employees, we also want employees with skills.  Too often university graduate comes to me with esoteric class credentials and no real world experience.  I prefer to hire those with experience versus those with degrees because i have a faster turnaround to get work done.  That said, i also like thinking individuals who can bring new insight to the position.  Students who come out of university overly concerned with recouping their investment don&#8217;t always fit this description.</p>
<p>The argument against education suffers from a belief that all students might be self-directed; many aren&#8217;t. Many need to grow up and accept that others have important concepts to teach them.  And of the drop-out examples listed, how many come from poor families?  It&#8217;s easier to dropout and Make It when your parents are investment bankers, not so much when they&#8217;re crack addicts.  For some of us, a degree is the only way to get a foot in the door &#8211; it&#8217;s otherwise slammed in our faces because of our accents, the way we look, or other employer prejudice.</p>
<p>One problem with both sides of this argument is they avoid answering real problems facing education. University needs to understand Industry&#8217;s need of skills-equipped labour.  Students need to understand the desireability of critical thinking. Cost must be controlled: $1200/credit hour to learn Calc from a foreign PhD candidate, plus $200 for the book on a subject that hasn&#8217;t changed in 300 years equals a broken system. While there are professors who actually know how to teach, too many focus on their research at the expense of their students.  While there are students who actually know how to learn, too many focus on the shortest path to a passable grade. And we still have an education disparity gap wherein students from lower economic classes don&#8217;t even consider going to college, let alone make it into elite universities. Who does the outreach into these communities? Does UM faculty receive any training on the specific pedagogical needs of such populations?  Do students receive specific training on how to think? And how does an employer distinguish between the graduate that just skated by versus the one that really learned?  A few more letters after &#8220;BA&#8221; tells me nothing; i need to quickly understand what a graduate knows and why one graduate is better than the other candidate.  The graduate should also understand/communicate his strongpoints, not feel lost when presented with real-world problems.  And the professor should know how to enable each student to reach the end goal &#8211; grades are silly; get the knowledge to the customer, your student.</p>
<p>Kahn speaks of one way forward in the latest Communications of the ACM; are there others?</p>
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